OT: MLB Thread- Offseason edition
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I don't consider what Addison Reed signed for to be "big money". That's a piece we should have added. I'd rather have an extra arm than go through another year like last.
Some like that strategy, I don’t. Churn and burn bullpen guys. Most don’t have several years of dominance. Comes and goes pretty quickly. Look at Motte and Rosenthal as recent examples.
Reed just had back to back 75+ inning seasons. I’ll take the next few years of guys like Tui and Helsley over Reed. Spend that money on offense and starting P.
I highly doubt Mo is done this offseason.
Gregerson had a off year last year and gave up more HRs than usual for him. They are betting against that happening again.
When you are, what, second or third in leads given up and one bullpen arm can help stabilize that why risk it?
Worst case you have an extra good arm if everybody else pans out. I think that was a terrible non move from Mo after he conceded at the beginning of the offseason that the bullpen needed to be shored up just to announce a couple months later "just kidding i think it's good enough".
That kind of flip flopping is ludicrous and if our bullpen struggles again this year he and Matheny should both get jettisoned. They should have learned their lesson from this year. No excuse for another one like that.
Tui, Helsley, Reyes, Jordan Hicks....there are some hard throwing youngsters that are going to take over bullpen roles. Hoping Waino can be effective in a more limited role too. Too early to freak out about the bullpen if you ask me.
Agree to disagree but we'll see. I don't understand the logic of risking another year like last by counting on rookies or bounce back injured pitchers to fill integral roles but apparently I'm just not the risk taker you are lol
Just different philosophies. I don’t think either one of us is necessarily right, and the other wrong.
Have to hope the young guys pan out. I’m counting on it because I think they have done a good job of stocking the system with talented, hard throwing pitchers. Certainly a chance I’ll be disappointed, and Matheny will be looking for a job. Can’t miss the playoffs in 2018.
I want another upgrade to the lineup. Still hoping they can bring in a stud 3B.
I don’t disagree with you mostly and would have loved a wade Davis type but it seems that guys that are dominant in the bullpen over many years are rare. Many guys have a 4-5 year stretch of dominance and then flame out and that is why giving Holland’s or Davis 60-70 million is a huge risk. You also have to keep in mind that Rosenthal and Oh are gone and that is addition by subtraction.
Yeah, I'm fine with them giving hard throwing younger arms a chance. Giving aging relievers with tons of usage 9 or 10 million bucks a year is risky. Just look at Brett Cecil. They gave him a monstrous deal last year and he was pretty awful. Not saying all of those deals end up bad, but many don't.
I agree. There's still enough talent there to make a run.
Cutch is a great player to have on the team. I don't see him patrolling that huge center field in SF though.
Cards need to get better ti make the playoffs. Bullpen is OK, you can add pieces as you move forward.
Need a starter and offense.
Need a starter and offense.
I think they have a chance to make the Wild Card game this year. The rotation is solid. If Pham and DeJong give them production close to what they did last year, then they make it to the Wild Card game with the addition of Ozuna. If those two come back down to Earth, it'll be tough for them to make the postseason as things sit.
I was going to bookmark this but I can’t. All the predictors have the cubs and cards close at the moment, but I expect both to still make some more big additions. We don’t know what we’re really looking at yet.
I don't share your optimism on Tui. Yes he throws hard but most of his best outings are those that are not in doubt. Imo, he doesn't have the mentality and toughness to be a closer. I think he's a solid bullpen guy but looks scared when the game in on the line. Nice season in Memphis last year, but...
Career WHIP of 1.37. 65 hits given up. 62 K's. .249 BAA. Only 46 saves in the minors in 57 opportunities and no MLB saves. I think it's wishful thinking to imagine him stepping into the closer role and flourishing.
What really big move do the Cardinals have left up their sleeve that will realistically put them on an even talent level with the current Cubs roster without the Cubs dealing with unforeseen injuries? The Cardinals have a fine team, but they're not likely to win the division. Certainly it could happen, it's baseball after all. I know in that power rankings you posted the other day, the Cardinals were one spot behind the Cubs, but they still projected the Cubs for nine more wins.
Talent comes and goes. The Cubs certainly haven't been and won't always be as loaded as they are right now, but average baseball fans can see that the Cubs lineup is just better right now.
I didn't think saying they have a shot to be a Wild Card team this year would be considered a jab or anything.
Opinions on teams vary. Heyman tweeted the other day that baseball could have four 100 win teams this year with the Yankees, Astros, Dodgers, and Cubs. We'll see what happens. I really hope we get to see a Astros-Yankees rematch in the ALCS next year. Obviously, I want to see a Dodgers-Cubs rematch for a third year in a row, too, but that Astros-Yankees rematch will be something to see.
Talent comes and goes. The Cubs certainly haven't been and won't always be as loaded as they are right now, but average baseball fans can see that the Cubs lineup is just better right now.
I didn't think saying they have a shot to be a Wild Card team this year would be considered a jab or anything.
Opinions on teams vary. Heyman tweeted the other day that baseball could have four 100 win teams this year with the Yankees, Astros, Dodgers, and Cubs. We'll see what happens. I really hope we get to see a Astros-Yankees rematch in the ALCS next year. Obviously, I want to see a Dodgers-Cubs rematch for a third year in a row, too, but that Astros-Yankees rematch will be something to see.
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I'm not in favor of rash signings and there is no need to panic, but for all their talk, the Cardinals payroll is presently projected to be less than last year. At some point they have to spend some money.
Still need another a bat, a starter, and a closer imo.
Glad they didn't go after Longoria. Hopefully the Rays are going all-in on the rebuild and trade Colome and Archer.
Still need another a bat, a starter, and a closer imo.
Glad they didn't go after Longoria. Hopefully the Rays are going all-in on the rebuild and trade Colome and Archer.
I’m a bit skeptical on him too. He has closer stuff and the performance has been ok, but I agree with everything you said too.
This wasn't the year to spend. I think the Cardinals are right to wait for next offseason's megaclass. They should make a run at Machado next year to be the face of their franchise going forward. If they wanted to deliver a gut punch to Cubs fans, they could try and find a way to get Bryce Harper to sign with them.
Doesn’t have the mentality? Why have they used him in that role in the minors then?
It’s like people don’t realize that a lot of closers didn’t originally look like a closer. Guys improve, its weird.
Pretty sure Rosenthal had one save in the minor leagues. That “doesn’t have the mentality” comment just makes you laugh. That’s a hell of a lot of minor league saves for someone that doesn’t have the mentality.
Not to mention, he’s come out and said that he wants to win the role. If there is one thing he definitely has, it’s the mentality. Now, can he miss bats more often, and continue developing the offspeed stuff? Those are the real questions.
I don't really know yet whether Tui has the ability or mentality to be a closer, but I do know he needs to develop much better breaking pitches to have a go-to out pitch.
I hope you are right. I like Tui. And I know you’ve been high on for him for a couple of years. I watch almost every game. And several minor league games. As you do.
He’s had some good minor league seasons. Yet, he’s been called up three seasons in a row and hasn’t gotten quality innings in pressure situations. And it’s not like there weren’t opportunities. Especially last year. Imo, his on mound demeanor looks different when there’s no pressure and when there is. And he doesn’t get enough K’s for a closer.
Seriously, I hope he develops but I don’t have confidence he will blossom into a regular closer at the major league level.
A little off the subject, but I’m surprised I didn’t see this before. Yadi says he intends to retire in three years.
https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/news/yadier-molina-plans-to-retire-after-deal-is-up/c-264724618
Tui has a lot in common with guys like Motte and Rosenthal. Drafted as a shortstop, and converted because of his power arm. There are a lot of reasons to think that he is still improving as a pitcher. His walk rate went way down this past year. If he can get that K rate back up near minor league levels, he's going to be pitching in the 8th and 9th innings.
I think there is a decent chance that they mix him and Lyons in (along with Gregerson) early in the season, depending on matchups. Then they will see who emerges.
I think there is a decent chance that they mix him and Lyons in (along with Gregerson) early in the season, depending on matchups. Then they will see who emerges.
Agree on mixing him with Lyons, Gregerson... And I hope he blows up and excels like he did in Memphis last year.
Definitely similarities with Motte and Rosenthal. You are right hasn't capped out his potential. But to your point, I think the fact that Tui hasn't been able to excel after 3 years of call-up's makes me hesitate to trust him filling that role. Rosenthal had 3.5 years in the minors. After a short call up in 2012, he was closing in the WS the following year. Motte had 3 years in the minors and in his second year was closing in the majors. Tui had 3 years in the minors and the past 3 years has been bouncing up and down between AAA and Majors. More significantly, the extra 2-3 MPH that Rosy and Motte had coming up makes a huge difference. Tui rides mid 90's. Those other two road in the high 90's.
I just think it's a huge leap of faith to think he's going to be a reliable closer this year. We've got to pick up a trusted arm. I'm still holding out hope that we can get Colome.
Rosenthal was drafted as a pitcher. He never played a professional inning at any other position.
I didn't like hearing DeWitt say he wasn't expecting any other major moves and Matheny say Gregorson was going into spring training as our closer. That makes the bullpen a huge question mark, which is especially frustrating given that we've been consistently weak there and Matheny is no strategic wizard. I guess they have a lot of faith in Maddux.
Yes as a Cards fan you can only be disappointed in DeWitt saying those things. I have no faith in Gregorson finishing games, I liked his pick up as a bullpen piece, 6-8th inning type of guy but to rely on him closing games is over the top and setting up for failure. I understand being excited about Hicks & Helsey and in a few years they could be dominant but why do the St. Louis brass always put so many question marks on this team instead of hiring people that are specific to a position on the field like First Base, Third Base or Closer as examples. I know its a little ways to Spring Training and Mo and Girsch could still be working the phones, lol, sure, but I am not sold on this team as it is now!
One slight complication is that Helsley and Hicks are still starters, and completely untested. I honestly don't think they're even in the discussion to help the bullpen this year. Reyes on the other hand...
I read in an article either in the post dispatch or on the St. Louis Cards app that Mo was saying both Hicks and Helsey could be up this year to help out the bullpen. I would link the article but am an amateur and have no clue how. They said that each would be in AA and they feel like that is one step from the bigs not two! I myself prefer someone who has been there and maybe Reyes could do it but still a big unknown.
It doesn't seem like the Cardinals to count on either guy for this year. Sounds like maybe Mo was just saying things weren't desperate? Helsley finished the year at AAA. It would be a surprise if he returned to AA this year.
I didn’t know that about Helsey. Wouldn’t be the first time we have used starters out of the bullpen. I know they have big arms but I like experience in that role!
He was surprisingly really good last year, if his arm holds up I'm good with that. He had way better stuff than I expected.
Exactly my sentiments. He was far better than I anticipated. I’m a little surprised he wasn’t signed somewhere till now.
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