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Helluva year

Those are not economic indicators. Keep sticking to immigration, its Trump's only win.


Here is a list of major economic indicators. Do you see homelessness? Neither do I.

It's considered a lagging economic indicator.

If something doesn’t look at how the bottom of the country is faring at all, I don’t think that’s comprehensive enough.

The left constantly talks about having an economy that works for everyone. Well, the economy under Biden led to a massive increase of people living on the streets. If you don’t think that matters, OK, thanks for letting us know.

It’s all about the market guys. Forget everything the Dems said about the market when it was soaring under Trump’s first term. It’s all about the market, stop talking about the poor.
 
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Serious question for the Trump fans.

If the GOP had nominated someone else (who was also highly likely to win), do you think you’d need to spend the same amount of time defending that person? And if the answer is “no,” would they be a good thing in your opinion or not?
Do you think it is a good idea to continually spend the time to go TDS 2.0 on the democrat ELECTED President ?
 
If something doesn’t look at how the bottom of the country is faring at all, I don’t think that’s comprehensive enough.

The left constantly talks about having an economy that works for everyone. Well, the economy under Biden led to a massive increase of people living on the streets. If you don’t think that matters, OK, thanks for letting us know.

It’s all about the market guys. Forget everything the Dems said about the market when it was soaring under Trump’s first term. It’s all about the market, stop talking about the poor.

It's not all about the market, GDP growth, modest inflation, real wage growth and low unemployment mean people are doing well.

You start talking about street deaths and homelessness.
 

The top causes of homelessness:
Housing costs.
Lack of employment.
Decline in public assistance.
Lack of affordable health care.
Domestic violence.
Addiction.
Mental illness.

Nobody wants affordable housing near them.
Employment is a key economic indicator.
Decline in public assistance, Trump is for less public assistance.
Lack of health care, Trump is for reducing insurance subsidies and possible Medicaid cuts. So how exactly is Trump planning to make healthcare more affordable?
Trump is making cuts to addiction and mental health programs through DOGE.

Don't see anything about immigration.

Doesn't appear Trump is going to do much about homelessness. Does it?
 
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The rate would have to go negative for quite awhile to cancel out the previous double-digit food inflation. Yes, food inflation rates are below 5% now but that’s still an increase on top of the prior massive increases.

There will never be food deflation no matter who is president. The best anyone can do is to keep inflation modest.
 
It's not all about the market, GDP growth, modest inflation, real wage growth and low unemployment mean people are doing well.

You start talking about street deaths and homelessness.
How bout adding 2 trillion a year to the national debt? As interest rates climbed to combat Joetato/ WordSalad printing money to import illegals that drain entitlement programs(that you pretend to care about) for vulnerable Americans.

The above wouldn't have changed under the WordSalad you voted for. It was not sustainable.
 

The top causes of homelessness:
Housing costs.
Lack of employment.
Decline in public assistance.
Lack of affordable health care.
Domestic violence.
Addiction.
Mental illness.

Nobody wants affordable housing near them.
Employment is a key economic indicator.
Decline in public assistance, Trump is for less public assistance.
Lack of health care, Trump is for reducing insurance subsidies and possible Medicaid cuts. So how exactly is Trump planning to make healthcare more affordable?
Trump is making cuts to addiction and mental health programs through DOGE.

Don't see anything about immigration.

Doesn't appear Trump is going to do much about homelessness. Does it?


Common sense is dead. Of course it’s a major contributor now. Any list that doesn’t include it is a joke.

He’s going to get a ton of homeless non-citizens off the streets. Of course he is doing something about it.

You should feel fortunate that you don’t live in an area that was overwhelmed by this issue. Sad watching so many people live and die on the streets. About 300 a year in Denver alone. If you don’t think homelessness has an economic impact, that’s fine, I won’t argue with you. But let’s not act like the immigration issues created by Biden did not contribute to the rising homelessness in parts of the country.
 

Common sense is dead. Of course it’s a major contributor now. Any list that doesn’t include it is a joke.

He’s going to get a ton of homeless non-citizens off the streets. Of course he is doing something about it.

You should feel fortunate that you don’t live in an area that was overwhelmed by this issue. Sad watching so many people live and die on the streets. About 300 a year in Denver alone. If you don’t think homelessness has an economic impact, that’s fine, I won’t argue with you. But let’s not act like the immigration issues created by Biden did not contribute to the rising homelessness in parts of the country.

Other than deporting immigrants, what is Trump going to do about homelessness?
By the way, deportations are quite low. Below Biden's numbers.
 
How bout adding 2 trillion a year to the national debt? As interest rates climbed to combat Joetato/ WordSalad printing money to import illegals that drain entitlement programs(that you pretend to care about) for vulnerable Americans.

The above wouldn't have changed under the WordSalad you voted for. It was not sustainable.

2 trillion a year about the same as Trump.

 
The left would vilify anyone with a R with the insanity of a 1000 Karens. They despise RDS and labeled his reasonable bill, "don't say gay". Look no further than Stoney and what he thinks of his governor.

The question is would another R candidate try to fix trade and the US deficit spending? If history is the great dictator of the future, the answer is no. The safe path for any president is to walk around large difficult issues even to the detriment of the US, especially a first term POTUS. Trump thrives in controversy and chaos for better or for worse. He is probably the only one that would have charged that hill. Do I love his strategy there? No, but he had the courage to do it and I believe we will be better off long term for it. Do I believe Trump plays 4D chess? No, but he does appear to follow the advice of those he believes in.

Question for you....If Trump successfully resets international trade over the next 120 days to be more favorable to the US and the markets go back up to where they were and start their eb and flow upward above that, what will you think of him historically for the US. It appears there are a number of companies investing back in the US now and prices are coming down.

Let's answer your question with a longer and more exacting commentary than you might like. If you know only one country, you know no countries.

You are looking for Trump to "successfully reset international trade" (and frankly, are giving him too tight of a timeline here). But what if people educated on the topic understand that this is a farcical concept. A month ago, American exports averaged roughly 3-4% tariffs when arriving on foreign shores. Again ... 3-4%. Our tariff rates are about 2.5% on goods hitting our shores. There are specific examples of greater protectionism (often the auto industry is one and sometimes the steel industry is as well). But we are overwhelmingly a free trading nation, both in terms of goods coming in and goods going out. To put a 3-4% tariff rate on exports in context, that's less than half of what I pay in sales tax in Dallas County, Texas.

You want Trump to remake a system in which we overwhelmingly have free trade. I'm not going to lie, until "Liberation Day," I didn't have to know what the tariff rates generally were on American exports. When I saw what they are, I just thought "this is typical."

There's a secondary issue that I probably need to address - trade deficits. First, I will be frank, I don't find these to be a big deal (Trump does). There are many reasons the US has a significant trade deficit, but big ones include that fact that the USA is (a) really big (3rd largest population in the world and (b) really rich. Lots of consumers with lots of money attracts foreign goods. It also attracts foreign investment (which is also included in the "trade deficit"). While I think there's a fair argument that the US should do a better job of nurturing a handful of industries where excessive reliance on foreign manufacturing can heighten national security or other risk, most of the reason other countries want to sell in the US is that we can buy a whole lot (and most other countries can't).

Here's where the comment on not knowing other countries comes in. If you look around the world at peer nations (China isn't one, it's GDP per capita is probably 20% of the USA, with India lagging far behind China), Americans have been winning the economic race for a few decades now. Despite the massive growth in the former "Third World," America's share of the world economy is roughly the same as it was in 1990. While most major European countries had workers that were about 20% less well off than American workers a generation ago, today American incomes are 50-60% higher than those in places like Germany, France, and the UK. Interestingly, the countries that also doing well tend to be either petro states (Norway is actually one) or dynamic free market, extremely free trade economies (Switzerland, Ireland, the rest of Scandinavia).

I need to wrap this up ... but here's the other thing. I think Trump is an incompetent at actually doing things. The large majority of his success in owning real estate comes from being the heir to a guy who, in today's world, would have easily been a billionaire. The bankruptcies of a number of those operations were never shrewd business strategy, they are a feature of a guy who ran a multitude of businesses into the ground. Trump's last real construction project - Trump Tower Chicago, a legitimately beautiful building - was an epic financial mess (look it up, and it's also almost certainly why he hasn't released his taxes, he was taking losses from that project as an income setoff for years). I won't keep piling on, because Trump has proved incredible at one thing - marketing. When he shifted his brand from actually doing stuff to marketing the "Trump" name, that actually worked. It worked on TV, it worked in hoteling (he doesn't own many of the hotels that say "Trump" on them but he's collected some nice fees for the name), and it worked incredibly well in politics.

So bottom line, US trade policy didn't need a major reset. A guy who isn't good at substance couldn't disabuse himself of the notion it did, because apparently Dems liked tariffs in the 1980s (when he certainly wasn't a R). There is no shangri la on trade we are going to reach, we were already in a great position on trade generally (this isn't to say that Trump couldn't tinker around the edges, but it's not what he's done).
 
One more add, where I think Trump has done well despite my doubts (e.g., he was great on judges in his first term), I say as much. Trump's first term FP was interesting, but got some results that hadn't been previously achieved. I'm sure he will have wins in his second term too (and already has), but this is going to get swarmed under if we have a recession this year and it gets blamed on Trump. Because the bottom line is that Trump does a bunch of things to alienate normal, less partisan people, so they'd damn well sure not associate him with economic problems.
 
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Continue to deflect. The economy was in decent shape when Trump took over and now we are halfway to a recession. If you think Trump is doing a great job, good for you.

I’m in wait and see mode. As I posted earlier, I’m giving Trump a full first year to get this economy humming again, and get trade deals in place. If that doesn’t happen, I’ll have questions, and the GOP will get hammered at the mid terms.
 
Continue to deflect. The economy was in decent shape when Trump took over and now we are halfway to a recession. If you think Trump is doing a great job, good for you.

How is this deflecting? You noted wage growth earlier in this discussion. It didn’t keep up with inflation. Housing affordability plummeted. The economy worked for the top, but crushed people in the lower middle class.

I’ve noted this before, but the working poor didn’t fare very well under Obama or Biden.
 
Let's answer your question with a longer and more exacting commentary than you might like. If you know only one country, you know no countries.

You are looking for Trump to "successfully reset international trade" (and frankly, are giving him too tight of a timeline here). But what if people educated on the topic understand that this is a farcical concept. A month ago, American exports averaged roughly 3-4% tariffs when arriving on foreign shores. Again ... 3-4%. Our tariff rates are about 2.5% on goods hitting our shores. There are specific examples of greater protectionism (often the auto industry is one and sometimes the steel industry is as well). But we are overwhelmingly a free trading nation, both in terms of goods coming in and goods going out. To put a 3-4% tariff rate on exports in context, that's less than half of what I pay in sales tax in Dallas County, Texas.

You want Trump to remake a system in which we overwhelmingly have free trade. I'm not going to lie, until "Liberation Day," I didn't have to know what the tariff rates generally were on American exports. When I saw what they are, I just thought "this is typical."

There's a secondary issue that I probably need to address - trade deficits. First, I will be frank, I don't find these to be a big deal (Trump does). There are many reasons the US has a significant trade deficit, but big ones include that fact that the USA is (a) really big (3rd largest population in the world and (b) really rich. Lots of consumers with lots of money attracts foreign goods. It also attracts foreign investment (which is also included in the "trade deficit"). While I think there's a fair argument that the US should do a better job of nurturing a handful of industries where excessive reliance on foreign manufacturing can heighten national security or other risk, most of the reason other countries want to sell in the US is that we can buy a whole lot (and most other countries can't).

Here's where the comment on not knowing other countries comes in. If you look around the world at peer nations (China isn't one, it's GDP per capita is probably 20% of the USA, with India lagging far behind China), Americans have been winning the economic race for a few decades now. Despite the massive growth in the former "Third World," America's share of the world economy is roughly the same as it was in 1990. While most major European countries had workers that were about 20% less well off than American workers a generation ago, today American incomes are 50-60% higher than those in places like Germany, France, and the UK. Interestingly, the countries that also doing well tend to be either petro states (Norway is actually one) or dynamic free market, extremely free trade economies (Switzerland, Ireland, the rest of Scandinavia).

I need to wrap this up ... but here's the other thing. I think Trump is an incompetent at actually doing things. The large majority of his success in owning real estate comes from being the heir to a guy who, in today's world, would have easily been a billionaire. The bankruptcies of a number of those operations were never shrewd business strategy, they are a feature of a guy who ran a multitude of businesses into the ground. Trump's last real construction project - Trump Tower Chicago, a legitimately beautiful building - was an epic financial mess (look it up, and it's also almost certainly why he hasn't released his taxes, he was taking losses from that project as an income setoff for years). I won't keep piling on, because Trump has proved incredible at one thing - marketing. When he shifted his brand from actually doing stuff to marketing the "Trump" name, that actually worked. It worked on TV, it worked in hoteling (he doesn't own many of the hotels that say "Trump" on them but he's collected some nice fees for the name), and it worked incredibly well in politics.

So bottom line, US trade policy didn't need a major reset. A guy who isn't good at substance couldn't disabuse himself of the notion it did, because apparently Dems liked tariffs in the 1980s (when he certainly wasn't a R). There is no shangri la on trade we are going to reach, we were already in a great position on trade generally (this isn't to say that Trump couldn't tinker around the edges, but it's not what he's done).

Did you consider not all tariffs are transparent. Tariffs can vary in clarity depending on how governments or organizations communicate them. Some tariffs are clearly published with specific rates and conditions, like those on government trade websites or international agreements (e.g., WTO schedules). However, others can be opaque due to complex exemptions, hidden surcharges, or discretionary application by customs authorities. Non-tariff barriers, like quotas or regulations, can also obscure true costs. Lack of transparency often stems from bureaucratic inefficiencies, corruption, or deliberate policy ambiguity to favor certain industries or trading partners. For real-time examples, I could search X posts or web data if needed.

Do you see lots of Chevys in Japan or anywhere in Europe?
 

2 trillion a year about the same as Trump.

Donald Trump did little to attempt to lower the deficit first term. The difference is Joetato/ WordSalad were intentionally bringing in illegals to weigh down our system. As he continued in reckless spending and shipping more mouths to feed in to the US, rates went up. This helped increase the cost of our massive debt. Did you think all of that was sustainable? if so, for how long?

I let my neighbor borrow 100K. He went out and bought a nice ride and partied in luxury for a year. At the end of the year, he had nothing left and owed me money. Was he successful financially that year?

Trump is actively wanting to reduce spending. You and your friends on the left are attacking him for it.
 
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How is this deflecting? You noted wage growth earlier in this discussion. It didn’t keep up with inflation. Housing affordability plummeted. The economy worked for the top, but crushed people in the lower middle class.

I’ve noted this before, but the working poor didn’t fare very well under Obama or Biden.

My initial point is that the economy was in decent shape and Trump has screwed it up. Then you go into a tangent about immigration and homelessness. Now you are starting a discussion about the Biden presidency. The Biden presidency is over with.

Trump was handed an economy that was in decent shape and broke it. If you think the economy is in fine shape, then we simply disagree.
 
Did you consider not all tariffs are transparent. Tariffs can vary in clarity depending on how governments or organizations communicate them. Some tariffs are clearly published with specific rates and conditions, like those on government trade websites or international agreements (e.g., WTO schedules). However, others can be opaque due to complex exemptions, hidden surcharges, or discretionary application by customs authorities. Non-tariff barriers, like quotas or regulations, can also obscure true costs. Lack of transparency often stems from bureaucratic inefficiencies, corruption, or deliberate policy ambiguity to favor certain industries or trading partners. For real-time examples, I could search X posts or web data if needed.

Do you see lots of Chevys in Japan or anywhere in Europe?

Sure, there are "hidden barriers" in some places. Europe has regulatory barriers. Of course, the same barriers apply to European production too, so it hardly seems like that's a good example of Americans being treated unfairly (it's a good example of Europeans acting stupidly). There are currency manipulators in the trade system too, they tend to be poor countries who want to sell Americans even cheaper goods. This of course impacts trade deficits in a "negative" way, but means you pay even less for the goods.

The reason you don't see Chevys in Europe is because American car manufacturers generally haven't produced the smaller cars that Euros drive. They prefer to sell bigger, higher margin vehicles to the American consumer. Most economists actually understand that a big part of why Americans have big cars is because we are wealthier. We can afford the higher cost, more luxurious car that requires a higher cost to operate (more gas). This is a boon to America.
 
Donald Trump did little to attempt to lower the deficit first term. The difference is Joetato/ WordSalad were intentionally bringing in illegals to weigh down our system. As he continued in reckless spending and shipping more mouths to feed in to the US, rates went up. This helped increase the cost of our massive debt. Did you think all of that was sustainable? if so, for how long?

I let my neighbor borrow 100K. He went out and bought a nice ride and partied in luxury for a year. At the end of the year, he had nothing left and owed me money. Was he successful financially that year?

Trump is actively wanting to reduce spending. You and your friends on the left are attacking him for it.

Trump increased the deficit during his first term by as much as Biden yet you seem to be ok with Trump's spending. Why?
 
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My initial point is that the economy was in decent shape and Trump has screwed it up. Then you go into a tangent about immigration and homelessness. Now you are starting a discussion about the Biden presidency. The Biden presidency is over with.

Trump was handed an economy that was in decent shape and broke it.

I disagree with this statement. I think there were many troubling signs.
If you think the economy is in fine shape, then we simply disagree.

I haven't said that, I know it's not. I have many concerns. We all know that the previous admin impacts the economy for a while going into the next term. Granted, I will give you, Trump blew it up.

I said I'm giving it some time. Not 100 days. I am encouraged that the drop stopped pretty quickly. I had some concern it would continue. I still have concern that we have some rough months ahead. But I'm choosing to be optimistic and give it a year.
 
Trump increased the deficit during his first term by as much as Biden yet you seem to be ok with Trump's spending. Why?
Much of that deficit increase was in 2020 as a reaction to the Covid-19 pandemic. For all practical purposes, it didn't matter who was president that year.
 
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Trump increased the deficit during his first term by as much as Biden yet you seem to be ok with Trump's spending. Why?
Not really. I thought it was a miss. One of the reasons I was openly for RDS on here. Of course, to be fair, Trump was more concerned with being reelected in his first term. Second term presidents have more of an opportunity to make a long term difference tackling more controversial issues like bloated government spending.
 

The top causes of homelessness:
Housing costs.
Lack of employment.
Decline in public assistance.
Lack of affordable health care.
Domestic violence.
Addiction.
Mental illness.

Nobody wants affordable housing near them.
Employment is a key economic indicator.
Decline in public assistance, Trump is for less public assistance.
Lack of health care, Trump is for reducing insurance subsidies and possible Medicaid cuts. So how exactly is Trump planning to make healthcare more affordable?
Trump is making cuts to addiction and mental health programs through DOGE.

Don't see anything about immigration.

Doesn't appear Trump is going to do much about homelessness. Does it?
You have improperly listed the top causes.

NYC had a unit of NYPD and Mental Health/Sociologists in a 10 person van. Their job was to canvass areas of homelessness and try to convince the shopping cart nomads into the vans and NYC housing dorm. Where they could get FREE hot meals, hot showers, bed, clean clothing, etc.

The units were eventually disbanded because of drugs & mental issues !
 
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Did you consider not all tariffs are transparent. Tariffs can vary in clarity depending on how governments or organizations communicate them. Some tariffs are clearly published with specific rates and conditions, like those on government trade websites or international agreements (e.g., WTO schedules). However, others can be opaque due to complex exemptions, hidden surcharges, or discretionary application by customs authorities. Non-tariff barriers, like quotas or regulations, can also obscure true costs. Lack of transparency often stems from bureaucratic inefficiencies, corruption, or deliberate policy ambiguity to favor certain industries or trading partners. For real-time examples, I could search X posts or web data if needed.

Do you see lots of Chevys in Japan or anywhere in Europe?
Just in Cuba. But mostly those cars are 50 + years old !
 
Did you think all of that was sustainable? if so, for how long?

You forgot to answer my questions.

I think your premise that all those who crossed the border were looking for handouts and would remain idle is not correct. If most of the immigrants were employed and paid taxes then from an economic perspective it was not a big problem. However, I don't know the true answer so I can't say.
 

One quarter of negative growth, one more quarter of negative growth and Trump will have given birth to a recession before July 4th. Trump is on fire!

You are so eager to justify your moronic vote for brain dead Biden and cackling Kamala that you don't even let the dust subside even a little bit. Jeff cheers negative growth! Then the real reason comes out and the stock market quickly recovers 400 points.

Hopefully, the Federal spending orgy is being reduced. I know for fact that Army contractors working remotely have been cut. All travel is being scrutinized including travel to Crimson Viper 2025 in Thailand. University research funding is being cut - and I recently came into some quality information from an overseas doctorate. US universities seem to take a much larger cut (say 20 percent) that goes to general operations - not the research itself. Foreign universities are much lower. As with everything, the correct answer is in the middle.

But, your boy Joe didn't care nor did your girl Kammy.

 
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The economy was in decent shape before Trump took over. The economy was growing and inflation was in check. There was nothing to fix until Trump screwed it up.

Please point to any economic indicators that showed the US economy was in trouble prior to Trump taking office.
egg_basket.jpg
 
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I think your premise that all those who crossed the border were looking for handouts and would remain idle is not correct. If most of the immigrants were employed and paid taxes then from an economic perspective it was not a big problem. However, I don't know the true answer so I can't say.
I didn't say they were all looking for handouts, but the pure numbers coming in during Biden's term would tell you there were way, way more than migrant workers. Look at the money being dumped into NYC, Chicago, etc to house these people. It was OOC and financially unsustainable.
 
I think your premise that all those who crossed the border were looking for handouts and would remain idle is not correct. If most of the immigrants were employed and paid taxes then from an economic perspective it was not a big problem. However, I don't know the true answer so I can't say.
Actually, Jeff is correct here. Rarely do I say that. In Colorado, the illegal gang-bangers created jobs for Americans!

Active duty service personnel were guarding their illegal party.

Shout out to Jeff!
 
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Jeff told us a massive bill was required to secure the border. False.
No, the "massive" immigration reform act, was not just about closing the border, it had provisions for guest workers which we need, more immigration judges which we need and other necessary provisions, that is why it was comprehensive reform.
 
No, the "massive" immigration reform act, was not just about closing the border, it had provisions for guest workers which we need, more immigration judges which we need and other necessary provisions, that is why it was comprehensive reform.
None of those provisions were necessary for closing the border, as we quickly found out.
 
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