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Forget it….

Precisely why China will be forced to negotiate.

Love Sowell. Very smart man. Love VDH too. Sowell does recognize the negotiating tactic. I know you hate Trump and due to your emotion, your normally very solid brain tends to overheat. Negotiations aren't immediate, but your favorite leader of Argentina loves Trump. Look for Argentina to thrive. Bet on any country that seeks fair and free trade with the US.

The problem is you say you want free trade but asking countries nicely to remove their trade barriers doesn't work. If the Dems were trying to get them reduced, it didn't happen. Trump gave the world 70 days and already we are seeing results from Israel, Argentina, Vietnam, etc.

Time will tell.

You're right on one thing. Dems did not take the lead on negotiating lower trade barriers. Dems were the party that opposed the TPP more than Rs (tho ultimately Trump killed it).

I think that all ended this week. For both coalitional and oppositional reasons, I think Dems are likely to be a party of free trade going forward. Trump may end up changing Ds more than Rs, as he's forcing that party to take positions far more in tune with the growing suburban influence on the Dem Party.
 
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Gotcha.

I agree with you on the wage thing. Let the market decide. I promise you that, if a small town factory is paying terrible wages but the place 50 miles is away is paying more, people will drive a longer distance for higher pay.

I think the Dems are directionally wrong on the minimum wage (now if we have one, I do think we need a better discussion on what it should be over time), but they are directionally right on trade. That said, what happened this week was one of the biggest changes in our politics in modern times - I think Dems are not going back on the idea of free trade and are likely a free trade party now. Unions have declined in importance for them for decades, this might be the end.

I agree with that. I think states having a minimum wage makes more sense than a federal minimum wage. The cost of living varies significantly in different states. Montana shouldn’t have the same minimum wage as California or New York.

If states have a very low minimum wage, and people are unable to afford to live in those states, they will leave. That puts plenty of pressure on states to have a reasonable minimum wage that fits the cost of living.
 
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One thing we need to discuss. The trade deficit is measured ONLY in goods, while the US is a service-based economy and absolutely "exports" more services than it "imports." I'm sure that doesn't make up the entire trade deficit, but it would be helpful to consider before we declare a problem.

Second, are we sure that the trade deficit is a problem? Despite the claims of many, American incomes and wealth have grown considerably in the last 50 years. While the top end has gained more than the bottom over this time, in recent years wage gains at the lower end have outpaced those at the higher end (my amateur eye suggests that the real reason wages declined at the low end - a phenomenon that was real from about 1980 to 1995 but has reversed since - is that addition of millions of women to the workforce). The poorest 20% of Americans consume more in goods/services than the average person in many "rich" countries (crazy but actually true). It doesn't seem like transitioning to a service-based importer has hurt the country in a meaningful way. It may have hurt some zip codes, but America is a huge nation with varying and sometimes competing interests.

Third, I bring this up a lot, but when you look at the richest nations in the world, there are four types: (1) petro-states with small populations; (2) Switzerland; (3) the United States; and (4) trade-based city states like Luxembourg and Singapore. (1) isn't replicable and (2)/(3) are historically dynamic economies, and (4) are pure importers premised on a free trade regime. Exactly none of these countries is premised on manufacturing, and almost all are service-based regimes who embrace trade.

Fourth, not sure if this is the question being made, but there is a discussion about what products "need" to be made in the USA for defense, national security, and even scarcity purposes. I'm not sure of the answer, seems like shipbuilding, pharmaceuticals, and some tech products should be items the US considers how to make more of. But there's other items that it may not, from an overall perspective, hurt to lose.
Good stuff Dtrain,

A bit of trivia, in 2023 the US exported $1.03T in services and imported $0.78T in services. While not subject to tariffs per say, they (our exports) do get hit with various barriers that per the US Trade Representative office impose "severe" limits on what we can export on that front. So that kind of gets back to the "fairness" issue. The world loves our money flowing to them but get persnickety when theirs flows to us.

Even though I grew up at the lowest rung of the middle class I've done fairly well, was able to retire at 57 (60 now) and while probably not as wealthy as the typical participant here, I'm in solid shape, and am high enough up the socioeconomic scale that turbulence on Wall Street affects me noticeably (without coming close to threatening viability). and as a "have" I do have a motivation to preserve the status quo. "Works for me." But in that I was dismissive of the fact that people younger than me didn't have it quite so easy, and it gets more difficult they younger the cohort are. So I now have more sympathy than I did, and I'm more attuned to how destabilizing steep socioeconomic gradients can be. That makes me no longer as willing to say everything is fine going forward.

It's true the US is wealthy by worldwide standards and even our middle and lower classes are better off by the top level numbers than they were in the past. I'm not at a point where I feel that imbalanced trade barriers (goods or services) is the price the poor should pay. I don't see a boosted manufacturing sector threatening the service economy. I think the blue collar demographic having more money and opportunity would boost the service sector.

Looking at it nationally we seem to have two major issues: a debt we seem on the brink of losing track of, and strategic vulnerabilities that if they are manifested threaten the entire economy. Generally I'd say we'd want to be capable of keeping our infrastructure intact (power/energy, transportation, communication, healthcare, ???) and need both capability and capacity to maintain of even rebuild them. So I tend to see the difference between using something like tariffs on a fairness principle, as a way to broaden opportunities for the lower economic groups, or to protect strategic interests, as distinctions without a difference. I personally see the strategic need as the most urgent and critical, and the other two as consequences of it that in some respects make it a win-win, though probably not for me as some of the multinationals in my portfolio might make me less money for a while. That strategic vulnerability is the one I cant see a way around without using some form trade barriers so that all the types of business that feeds into it remain viable and overseas competition can't dump artificially cheap alternatives into our market to destroy them. I suppose the other option would be to put the government in charge of all those feeder industries, and use taxpayer subsidies to make them competitive, or simply have the taxpayer eat the cost of making things that can't be sold, and trust that the government will make things that work if they are ever needed.

My native libertarian "free trade" ideal has begun to feel a little Pollyanna-ish over the last 5 years. And I'm gradually coming around to thinking that if trade can't be free in both directions, then it should at least be as fair as we can make it in both directions, and if necessary even make strategic carve outs for the most critical industries to national security writ large.

When you get to the debt it's more a matter of do we tell everyone to tighten their belts, or do we do what we can to stack the deck more in our favor to try to outgrow it (that would include domiciling as much of any sort of business here as we can). I don't see either one working because of politics, but that's sort of a different discussion.
 
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I am actually for a minimum wage of around $13/hr. $20 is much too high. However, if the two are a package deal I would take the bad with the good.

FYI, the Republican party has never been the party of improved worker conditions either in the US or overseas. Do you think Trump cares one bit about working conditions overseas?
FYI. the basic beliefs of the TWO parties have SWITCHED .

Working conditions overseas are NOW low wage, slave or slave type labor !

Fix the problems in the USA, then overseas ! Since WW I the US had attempted to cure other Countries or Regions with no success and leaving our citizens to suffer.

There are TWO methods of lowering our Debt AND the interest payment due !
1. Pay down the principal, which lowers the interest payments.
2. Issue new debt with lower interest and require the old debt to be exchanged for the new !
 
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Fully expecting the markets to recover over the next couple of weeks as investors figure out who the winners and losers are going to be.

It’s been fascinating listening to commentators on the left and the right who are bought and paid for by corporate America.

The stock market is not a zero sum game like option trading. It's more like most boats rise and fall together. Most companies will be impacted for quite some time by the tariffs, certainly for the rest of the year at a bare minimum. The future cash flows will be more uncertain (risky) and higher returns will be required. The "winners" will be smaller in number and magnitude. It is almost certain that winners have already had their stock price adjusted to reflect their better circumstances. The only way the markets recover quickly is if the tariffs are rescinded. Otherwise the stock market will be at a depressed level for some time as there is no catalyst for a turnaround. Tariffs are going to depress economic activity and those are the facts of life.
 
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Good stuff Dtrain,

A bit of trivia, in 2023 the US exported $1.03T in services and imported $0.78T in services. While not subject to tariffs per say, they (our exports) do get hit with various barriers that per the US Trade Representative office impose "severe" limits on what we can export on that front. So that kind of gets back to the "fairness" issue. The world loves our money flowing to them but get persnickety when theirs flows to us.

Even though I grew up at the lowest rung of the middle class I've done fairly well, was able to retire at 57 (60 now) and while probably not as wealthy as the typical participant here, I'm in solid shape, and am high enough up the socioeconomic scale that turbulence on Wall Street affects me noticeably (without coming close to threatening viability). and as a "have" I do have a motivation to preserve the status quo. "Works for me." But in that I was dismissive of the fact that people younger than me didn't have it quite so easy, and it gets more difficult they younger the cohort are. So I now have more sympathy than I did, and I'm more attuned to how destabilizing steep socioeconomic gradients can be. That makes me no longer as willing to say everything is fine going forward.

It's true the US is wealthy by worldwide standards and even our middle and lower classes are better off by the top level numbers than they were in the past. I'm not at a point where I feel that imbalanced trade barriers (goods or services) is the price the poor should pay. I don't see a boosted manufacturing sector threatening the service economy. I think the blue collar demographic having more money and opportunity would boost the service sector.

Looking at it nationally we seem to have two major issues: a debt we seem on the brink of losing track of, and strategic vulnerabilities that if they are manifested threaten the entire economy. Generally I'd say we'd want to be capable of keeping our infrastructure intact (power/energy, transportation, communication, healthcare, ???) and need both capability and capacity to maintain of even rebuild them. So I tend to see the difference between using something like tariffs on a fairness principle, as a way to broaden opportunities for the lower economic groups, or to protect strategic interests, as distinctions without a difference. I personally see the strategic need as the most urgent and critical, and the other two as consequences of it that in some respects make it a win-win, though probably not for me as some of the multinationals in my portfolio might make me less money for a while. That strategic vulnerability is the one I cant see a way around without using some form trade barriers so that all the types of business that feeds into it remain viable and overseas competition can't dump artificially cheap alternatives into our market to destroy them. I suppose the other option would be to put the government in charge of all those feeder industries, and use taxpayer subsidies to make them competitive, or simply have the taxpayer eat the cost of making things that can't be sold, and trust that the government will make things that work if they are ever needed.

My native libertarian "free trade" ideal has begun to feel a little Pollyanna-ish over the last 5 years. And I'm gradually coming around to thinking that if trade can't be free in both directions, then it should at least be as fair as we can make it in both directions, and if necessary even make strategic carve outs for the most critical industries to national security writ large.

When you get to the debt it's more a matter of do we tell everyone to tighten their belts, or do we do what we can to stack the deck more in our favor to try to outgrow it (that would include domiciling as much of any sort of business here as we can). I don't see either one working because of politics, but that's sort of a different discussion.

There's a lot to unpack here, and I'm going to keep my response simpler than it deserves.

I don't really buy the argument that "young people have it harder than we did." I'm not a Millennial, but in their 20s we heard stories about how this was going to be the first generation doing worse than their parents/predecessors. In recent years, the assessments of that have fallen apart, Millennials are now the richest generation at their respective age.

I do think mobility has become harder in the US. And some of it is probably economic impediments disincentivizing some poorer people from seeking to advance. A lot is likely due to educational, geographic, and genetic sorting in which people who succeed in the knowledge economy have become more like to go to school (particularly college), live, and yes breed with one another.

Finally, I think you make the case for targeted economic measures well. Whether it be tariffs or something else. Trump just acted in a radically different fashion.

Ultimately, I think Trump will have destroyed the case for economic nationalism when this is all over. And I won't be surprised if populism falls with it, and to be clear the majority of Republicans will be fine going back to the old ways on most issues as they seem to be perfectly fine with follow the leader. All in all, I'm glad Trump made what I think is a giant, idiotic bet, because I think his ideological project (which I'm not sure he understands to even be an ideological project) is a giant, idiotic mess. All the better it fails and normalcy is better appreciated.
 
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I agree with that. I think states having a minimum wage makes more sense than a federal minimum wage. The cost of living varies significantly in different states. Montana shouldn’t have the same minimum wage as California or New York.

If states have a very low minimum wage, and people are unable to afford to live in those states, they will leave. That puts plenty of pressure on states to have a reasonable minimum wage that fits the cost of living.

The federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. That is a poverty level wage rate. There isn’t anyone I know that doesn't make substantially more than that. The majority (30) of states are essentially determining the minimum wage.

When I was in high school, the minimum wage was 3.10 and I didn't think that was great money. Today's minimum wage of 7.25 would have been a 1.88 back then. I don't hear anyone clamoring for a lower federal minimum wage rate. The federal minimum wage is not a problem anywhere.
 
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The federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. That is a poverty level wage rate. There isn’t anyone I know that doesn't make substantially more than that. The states are essentially determining the minimum wage.

When I was in high school, the minimum wage was 3.10 and I didn't think that was great money. Today's minimum wage of 7.25 would have been a 1.88 back then. 30 states have higher minimum wages than the federal rate. The federal minimum wage is not a problem anywhere.

It would be if Dems decided the new wage.
 
There's a lot to unpack here, and I'm going to keep my response simpler than it deserves.

I don't really buy the argument that "young people have it harder than we did." I'm not a Millennial, but in their 20s we heard stories about how this was going to be the first generation doing worse than their parents/predecessors. In recent years, the assessments of that have fallen apart, Millennials are now the richest generation at their respective age.

I do think mobility has become harder in the US. And some of it is probably economic impediments disincentivizing some poorer people from seeking to advance. A lot is likely due to educational, geographic, and genetic sorting in which people who succeed in the knowledge economy have become more like to go to school (particularly college), live, and yes breed with one another.

Finally, I think you make the case for targeted economic measures well. Whether it be tariffs or something else. Trump just acted in a radically different fashion.

Ultimately, I think Trump will have destroyed the case for economic nationalism when this is all over. And I won't be surprised if populism falls with it, and to be clear the majority of Republicans will be fine going back to the old ways on most issues as they seem to be perfectly fine with follow the leader. All in all, I'm glad Trump made what I think is a giant, idiotic bet, because I think his ideological project (which I'm not sure he understands to even be an ideological project) is a giant, idiotic mess. All the better it fails and normalcy is better appreciated.
Fair enough, I'm really just going by my anecdotal observations when it comes to my kids (millennials) and their children. The cost of housing relative to wages is a big one. As is the student debt fiasco for those who got trapped in it (luckily, not my kids). For a young family owning a second vehicle is less of a luxury than it was in the 70s, as is childcare. I went as long as I could without a smartphone, deeming them a waste of money, but it got to the point there was increasingly more I couldn't do. Stuff like that. So some of the increase in wages has come at a cost.

We've talked about mobility before, and it also comes at a cost. Even the smart people in the knowledge economy need "stuff" so I guess I favor a both/and approach to an either/or. There are other reasons to do it, but giving the 40%-60% or whatever of the population that just aren't cut out to thrive in the tech world information economy something to do that brings some wealth to themselves and the country seems worthwhile, especially when you can dovetail it to the strategic national interest.

There may be very elegant ways to do all this that I'm not seeing. I'll leave the debate of tactics, style, and persona to others who are more energized by it. No matter how the short-term politics play out, I believe there are some issues out there we need to begin to address, but I don't know what's the best way to address them. I think you're correct that we'll never go back to the 40s, 50s, 60s when the US was a manufacturing power first and foremost. I may sometimes sound like I'm arguing for that, but I think anyone really believes that manufacturing will ever be more than a moderate slice of our economy.
 
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Ever hear of John Tempelton ?

He was an American citizen who had a HUGE Mutual Family of Funds !

USA raised tax rates.

He moved and became Citizen of Bahamas and renounced his American citizenship.

Most Billionaires are Dems !
 
The minimum wage in real dollars has not been this low since 1945. Anybody who would be against an increase in the federal minimum wage must like to see people struggle mightily.

I’d rather see people with a job than being left homeless or forced to move.

I’ve seen minimum wage hikes along with other Dem policy destroy the city I live in. Record homelessness, businesses shutting down. If you want to see people struggling mightily on the streets, I could give you a tour.
 

Increasing the minimum wage just encourages businesses to move elsewhere.

Obviously many factors, but it’s one of them.
 
I’d rather see people with a job than being left homeless or forced to move.

I’ve seen minimum wage hikes along with other Dem policy destroy the city I live in. Record homelessness, businesses shutting down. If you want to see people struggling mightily on the streets, I could give you a tour.
What does that have to do with the federal minimum wage? Comparing almost $19 to $7.25 makes a lot of sense. If you think raising the federal wage to $8/hr is going to cause financial ruin, then you are lost. Again, in real dollars the minimum wage has not been this low for 80 years. If the minimum wage in 1980 kept up with the rate of inflation, the federal rate today would be 11.95. Your arguments against raising the minimum wage are nonsensical.
 
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Comparing almost $19 to $7.25 makes a lot of sense. If you think raising the minimum wage to 8/hr is going to cause financial ruin, then I don't what to say.

Where have you seen they want to increase it to $8? They want to more than double it.


 
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Where have you seen they want to increase it to $8? They want to more than double it.



I will say $15 is too high but $7.25 is a joke.
 
Fair enough, I'm really just going by my anecdotal observations when it comes to my kids (millennials) and their children. The cost of housing relative to wages is a big one. As is the student debt fiasco for those who got trapped in it (luckily, not my kids). For a young family owning a second vehicle is less of a luxury than it was in the 70s, as is childcare. I went as long as I could without a smartphone, deeming them a waste of money, but it got to the point there was increasingly more I couldn't do. Stuff like that. So some of the increase in wages has come at a cost.

We've talked about mobility before, and it also comes at a cost. Even the smart people in the knowledge economy need "stuff" so I guess I favor a both/and approach to an either/or. There are other reasons to do it, but giving the 40%-60% or whatever of the population that just aren't cut out to thrive in the tech world information economy something to do that brings some wealth to themselves and the country seems worthwhile, especially when you can dovetail it to the strategic national interest.

There may be very elegant ways to do all this that I'm not seeing. I'll leave the debate of tactics, style, and persona to others who are more energized by it. No matter how the short-term politics play out, I believe there are some issues out there we need to begin to address, but I don't know what's the best way to address them. I think you're correct that we'll never go back to the 40s, 50s, 60s when the US was a manufacturing power first and foremost. I may sometimes sound like I'm arguing for that, but I think anyone really believes that manufacturing will ever be more than a moderate slice of our economy.

In all seriousness, I think the biggest way to lift "malaise" among some of those struggling would be to incentivize moving. I do also agree with you that bolstering the manufacturing sector over the long haul is generally a good, but even if this works on that front, the impacts will be super profound and unnecessary elsewhere.
 
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Yes, no more tax breaks to billionaires that do not need them. Also, impose a minimum tax so that the very rich pay a fairer share of the burden.
Since highest income people are responsible to establishing jobs, there should be standards for tax rate versus jobs growth !

Provide for thousands of new jobs lower taxes, no jobs higher taxes.
 
Not for HS kids living in small towns. I wouldn’t be against modest increases, though it should be dictated by states. But Dems haven’t talked about modest increases.
50 or so years ago, I negotiated a job for Mad Dog as clean up guy for the parking lot of a restaurant nearby.
He got $ 6 dollars a day for 2 days (Sar & Sun am) of policing the lot and yard for trash.
The Owner complained that he was the highest hourly worker, since Mike was usually done in 5 - 10 minutes !

He was 6 !

He got a $ 1 raise when he turned 7.
 
50 or so years ago, I negotiated a job for Mad Dog as clean up guy for the parking lot of a restaurant nearby.
He got $ 6 dollars a day for 2 days (Sar & Sun am) of policing the lot and yard for trash.
The Owner complained that he was the highest hourly worker, since Mike was usually done in 5 - 10 minutes !

He was 6 !

He got a $ 1 raise when he turned 7.

Corn detasseling was my first job. I got paid OK for being a kid, but I remember the lesson. You never want to do a job like this again. Some jobs are meant to be starter jobs, and not careers.
 
In all seriousness, I think the biggest way to lift "malaise" among some of those struggling would be to incentivize moving. I do also agree with you that bolstering the manufacturing sector over the long haul is generally a good, but even if this works on that front, the impacts will be super profound and unnecessary elsewhere.
That's a toughie, depending on family dynamics, moving can be quite stressful. I moved around for 30 years and was no worse for the wear, but in the end I wound up "back home" as my dad's health began to decline. I think it's one of those things that is fine and apt to be beneficial to a lot of people, but maybe not everyone. I've found with all my lifestyle choices that aligning them to my temperament is key to success.

If by "this" you mean the Freedom Day festivities, you might well be right that it comes with a substantial downside that could have been avoided. And it might work out a little better than some fear if enough trading partners decide they want to engage and work towards truly freer, or even truly free, trade. That situation is outside my competence in terms of being able to make predictions worth the electrons it takes to put them on a screen.
 
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Mike would finish up and he and the owner would play that old game Pong all morning.

At 12 he moved up to cleaning a beach front clam bar and changing rooms for $ 10 bucks a day again Sat & Sun.
He used a fire hose and was done in 1/2 hour each day.

He worked at the same place, thru college, eventually to short order cook and made good money all summer !
 
That's a toughie, depending on family dynamics, moving can be quite stressful. I moved around for 30 years and was no worse for the wear, but in the end I wound up "back home" as my dad's health began to decline. I think it's one of those things that is fine and apt to be beneficial to a lot of people, but maybe not everyone. I've found with all my lifestyle choices that aligning them to my temperament is key to success.

If by "this" you mean the Freedom Day festivities, you might well be right that it comes with a substantial downside that could have been avoided. And it might work out a little better than some fear if enough trading partners decide they want to engage and work towards truly freer, or even truly free, trade. That situation is outside my competence in terms of being able to make predictions worth the electrons it takes to put them on a screen.
When we moved to Florida, I was originally in Tampa and flew back and forth to the family in NJ on weekends.

Moved the office to North Palm Beach, rented a house, but still commuted to NJ on weekends. Looking for a house in the area, everyone said Jupiter Island. one weekend snow in NJ, cancelled my flights. Looked on the Island for homes under 1 million. Found one just across from the private beach, tennis court, individual dock to Intercostal, screened pool, orchid house.
Perfect it was vacant with the owner developing an Island he owned in the Bahamas.

Didn't think of the # 1 RULE in real estate ! It's Not location !

It's has your Wife seen the new home ? She hated it !
 
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